The Sandwich Generation Survival Guide

Julia Mayer, a clinical psychologist, shares her extensive caregiving journey spanning nine years, which involved caring for her father after her mother's unexpected passing and then supporting her husband Barry's mother, Jean, and stepfather, Steve. After her mother died during a heart surgery recovery, Julia and her siblings stepped in to care for their father, with her older brother taking the primary caregiver role while Julia provided weekend relief. Her father passed away about 15 months after her mother, and shortly after, they became involved in caring for Barry's parents, who were experiencing financial difficulties.

Julia and Barry relocated Jean and Steve from Florida to an apartment near them, managing their care through the use of aides, a notebook system, and personal visits. Despite Jean's combative nature and strained relationship with Barry, Julia approached caregiving with compassion, patience, and a sense of humor. Her professional background as a psychologist helped her maintain emotional distance and communicate effectively, often serving as a mediator between Jean and Barry. She focused on preserving her family relationships through open communication and involving her children in the caregiving process.

Throughout their caregiving experience, Julia and Barry collaborated closely, supporting each other emotionally and eventually turning their experiences into professional resources. They are set to publish "The Caregiver's Answer Book" with AARP in July 2025, providing comprehensive guidance for caregivers in various situations. Julia's approach to caregiving emphasizes three key principles: not taking the care recipient's suffering personally, maintaining empathy and compassion, and seeking support for oneself during the challenging caregiving journey.

Social Media

Facebook: @Julia Mayer 

X: @JuliaLMayer23

Instagram: Julmayer23

LinkedIn: @Julie Mayer

Website: www.loveandmeaning.com

About Julia:

Julia L. Mayer, Psy.D is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Media, PA. She received her bachelor’s degree from the University of Pennsylvania and her doctorate in clinical psychology from Widener University. Prior to becoming a psychologist, she wrote plays and interned as an assistant to the director for a theater company in New York. She has published professionally in the APA journal, Families, Systems & Health. She also co-authored various articles with her husband, Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D., for WebMD and HealthCentral. She has been doing individual and marital therapy for 31 years, specializing in working with women who have histories of sexual trauma, eating disorders and troubled marriages. She has increasingly focused her work on supporting caregivers. Since 2018, she has been doing a weekly podcast about psychology and social justice, called Shrinks on Third. For nine years, she was a caregiver for her father with vascular dementia and

Transcript

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Hey guys, it's your favorite sisters with the Confessions of a reluctant caregiver. Podcast. On the show, you'll hear caregivers confessing the good, the bad and the completely unexpected. You're guaranteed to relate be inspired. Leave with helpful tips and resources and, of course, laugh. Now let's jump right in to today's guest confession. Hey, Jay. Well, hello, Natalie. You know what it feels what you know what would be the best thing to do today? Get a massage. No, I want to talk to Julia. You asked what was your answer? I'm sorry. I want to. I want to talk to Julia. Oh, yeah, we have a guest today, and so we're coming to you guys from the brand new studio, from PBS, Appalachia. Thank you. So we don't get anything, yeah, we've been talking about how to say it, is it Appalachia? Is it Appalachia? I'm going to tell you right now. I use it interchangeably, depending on and I'm from Tennessee, and all my Virginia friends are going to be like, if you don't say Appalachia, we're going to be really mad. Oh, even our guest is nodding her head at this moment. I'm like, I think you're a Northerner. You're even going to vote on this? She's nodding her head. She's like, Yeah, I do. So we are. We're so excited. We're telling everybody, you know, we're here recording in the new PBS studio in the Hard Rock Bristol, and we have a clear screen. I've been watching everybody like, if I randomly, if you're watching us on YouTube, which I encourage you to watch us on YouTube, we've got a brand new set. We don't have. We're not at the podcast. We're in chairs and we're comfy and it feels good. We did our hair and we, oh, we put clothes on. We wasn't just like, in sweatpants because nobody could see it. It's exactly, fair, exactly. So we're so happy to be here. And also want to give a shout out. We've got a brand new sponsor in addition to care forward, we also have care Scout, who is a brand new sponsor. We'll make sure everybody has information about them and definitely look them up. They are able to help support with identifying resources for home health. And so I'm really grateful to have care Scout as part of our newest sponsor. So Jay, I think it's time we have a guest jump right in. Yeah, even sing. And we've recorded two episodes and I haven't sang once today. No, I kind of get it started. Okay, giving right? You have to be serious. Ready? No, you don't have to be serious. Okay, today we have with us, Julia Mayer, now we have heard one side of this story. Oh, we have because we had her husband, Barry Jacobs. We left him with us. I don't his. I love Barry Jacob. You know what? He was the kickoff. I believe he was the kickoff episode for 2024 he was, yeah, but now we're getting, we get the other side, because it's like the He Said, She Said, remember that movie? He said, she said, it was such a cute movie. I did my voice. The other side of that story. What this is, I don't know what this deep story I was trying to have it, but I don't have I gotta finish telling this. So first of all, I told her already. I told Julia already. I love to get someone who's had caregiving experience, and they actually are a professional, not caregiver, but a professional. She, she's a clinical psychologist, and so no joke, she's totally like she, she absolutely is a professional. She knows how to do this. She has not messed up once. She handled it with grace and style. Laughing. She is like a figure skater that does the perfect triple looks the LUTs. Yeah, not a triple loop. That's definitely maybe she as She giggles when we see her on the screen, she may tell us that she might have had a couple of errors so, but let me tell you a little bit about her. So her, her caregiving experience is really interesting. She took care of her father and Barry's mother and stepfather. So her father, the experience with him is that her mother passed away under do I give away all the details, but I want to say that, because that was kind of like our story. And then she started caring for him, and she also had siblings that she worked with. We love that she has siblings, I know. So then, as a good wife, she also cared for Barry's mother and stepdad. So I'm like, she is, like, here on the struggle bus, on the intro, great, yeah, I know, because it's such a crazy story. I'm like, she's caring for all these people, and she's perfect, because, you know, well, and she's, and this is the other thing. I mean, she's a clinical psychologist. She's working too, and doing all these amazing things. So we just got to get started. Yeah, tell us the story started. Tell us the story. Julia, I mean, first of all, tell us. Tell us. How about you? Let me start, because you're discombobulated right now. Okay, Julia, I always like to say, let's start from the beginning. You were born, but tell us about your background. Bring us up to you. Met Barry like bring us up. Give us some background so we know a little bit more about you. Okay, thank you so much for having me, and I am happy to give you the other side of the story. Here you. Yes, I met Barry in graduate school. He was a year ahead of me, and that's just the beginning of the dream. And and then, you know, we got married, we had kids, and by the time my mother passed away suddenly, and I was helping to care for my dad, our kids were teenagers. We were taking care of our kids. We were that sandwich generation, the kids and then the parents. And wait, I'm going to time you out because you skipped over some of the most important parts. Tell us about you and your family. Like, tell us, give me the background of your family. Like you're from this area. You are like, you're wondering, like, you just jumped right into Barry, like you were born, and then there was Barry, and then there was Barry, and they're like, I'm just gonna forget all the metal parts. We know you have siblings. Yes, yeah, okay, okay, I was, I was, I'm from New York, yes, and probably why I speak quickly, but been in Pennsylvania for many, many years. Yeah, I do have three siblings, an older brother, younger sister, younger brother. Okay, you know your typical childhood. I went away to college and moved on from there. And when I am going to jump ahead a little bit, right ahead, go ahead. My mother passed away at that time. My older brother was still in New York, where my parents were, where my dad was still living. But I had a brother in California and a sister in New Jersey who had very young children, yeah, so I had the teenagers, so my older brother and I did most of the care, yeah, and but my brother lived 45 minutes for my dad, and of course, he was working full time. I was working full time, and what we came up with was he would do the bulk of the care. And then every other weekend, on Friday night, on Friday afternoon, I would drive the three hours to my dad's and give my brother a weekend off. Wow. So every other weekend I was in New York taking care of my dad. Any experience as you're growing up, like, did you have grandparents or aunts and uncles that you all cared for? Or was this something new that you were like, okay, my mom has passed away, and we have to step in because she was full time caregiver for your dad. Yeah, I was getting ready to say even before that. I want to back up a little bit, because you use in your notes that you sent to us, you said my mom was my dad's primary caregiver. So let's kind of actually back up and set the stage so that people know that this caregiving really did happen in a crisis. And because I want to reset a little bit, because we got really forward, and I'm like, I don't think I know well enough about what happened before. So your mom was caring for your dad. But why was your mom caring for your dad? My dad had vascular dementia and kidney disease and diabetes, and he was really smart. He was a doctor, so he never got medical care, that's at work, yeah, and so he probably didn't have to be as bad off as he was, but, and she was an attorney, actually, and both of them had semi retired, so they had a big retirement party, and then they both continued to work, but maybe a little bit less, yeah, and he started to have small strokes, and tias and she started to get to the point where she was worried about leaving him alone. So some weekends when she was caring for him, where my sister and I would, you know, kidnap her and have my brother step in for the weekend, and we would take her to Atlantic City or something, so that she could have a little time off. Oh, so you were caring for your mom too. You and your your siblings were helping to be we call that caregivers for caregivers. Because, I mean, I know you, your face was like, well, sorted. I'm like, No, I really think you should call for what you were doing. And it, you know, because caregiving is varying levels of interaction, and it's not just of, you know, doing helping with activities of daily living or just taking to doctor's appointments or medicine a lot of times. And this is something I think that's so important. Caregivers have to. Caregivers need caregivers too. And so I think those trips not only helped reinforce your all's relationship, but also provided that respite that she probably needed to help her keep going, and I think that's it sounds, and it sounds like a team sport, team activity. So I think that sounds that's important. And so when your mom passed unexpectedly, did you and your family because your dad got sick and he had this diagnosis, did you and the family have any conversations, or did your parents tell you? This is what your dad and I have decided to do. We know that you're like, because for us, with with us, my mom and dad had decided my mom was going to pass first, and God did not align with that. And so he was like, No, hold on a second. You think you're in control. That's cute. And. So we never had conversations around care, we never had conversations around finances. We never had conversations about what the plan was and what their wishes were for them. And so that's why, I think that's why I wanted to back us up to say, let's go into that. We never had those conversations either. But when my mother was going into the hospital for heart valve replacement and bypass surgery, and I just want to say the caregiver often gets sick too. Yes, exactly, you know, we can't forget that. And she was having her own health problems, and she was ignoring them also, because she was caring for him, we got her to, you know, a surgeon, and she she really needed the surgery. She was having trouble breathing and walking more than 10 paces, so she had this heart valve surgery and this bypass surgery, and we were as a team, except for my brother in California. The rest of us were ready to step in and rotate care for my dad. Yeah, that was the plan for her recovery. But three days after her surgery, she had this rare side effect from the bypass machine called hemorrhagic pancreatitis, and that was it for her. So we were completely left unprepared, and my dad was not functional, losing her. Yeah, they met. He was 17, and she was 16, and they had been, I mean, they were in their 70s, so Wow, they they were, they were a 50 Year kind of relationship, long term relationship, that is, and that's so painful, because, you know, you guys didn't expect this to happen, and I don't think anyone expects it to happen. But when you have one parent that is caring for another parent with a significant illness, that is that is different than everybody was just running, running concurrently and being okay, and this is how we were living, sort of idea. So, so you guys are trying to grieve. And also, now you're in charge, and so you and your siblings, was what happened at that point with you and your siblings, in the sense of, we're going to have to do this thing. And also, holy crap, we've got to take care of dad, because we had that conversation. Holy crap, we've got to take care of mom. And how are we going to do this? Yeah, and, and it was traumatic how my mother died. Now so traumatized, we were overwhelmed, trying to grieve, trying to support my dad. My dad became kind of non functional and to do everything, yeah, luckily, there were four of us so my older brother, I would have to say, really, did the bulk of the planning. He and I, together did a lot we were, ended up being co executors of their wills and and my dad was a wonderful person. He, I mean, he really was. He only lasted about 15 months after her, because he he really couldn't exist without her. He depressed, but he was really cooperative. Um, there came a time where we had to take his car from him, because even though my mother would say to me privately, I hate when Dad drives, he let him and then she died. And then we're like, Okay, we have to get the car from dad, yeah, my older brother, um, just disconnected the battery thinking, Oh, he'll try to start the car, and it won't start, and he'll give up. But no, he called his mechanic to come over and look plugged it in again. I turned all three siblings are like, okay, Julie, you better. You it's your turn. So I It was horrible. I sat down with him, and I said, we have to talk about the car. And I was ready for him to resist. And he said, I've been thinking about it. I'd like to give your daughter, she's 16. I'd like to give her that car. Oh, I love that. It gives back dignity and control, making like he knew, yeah, well, I could do was say thank you. That's so generous. That's so it was an old Buick. It was perfect for, you know, 16 year old. Honestly, we had our own first cars that, you know, you could run into the side of the bridge and it wouldn't dent, yeah, that's what a Buick is. So, you know you said, and I, when I hear that, you know your your dad lasted 15 months because they they truly were together for so long, I know that in that time as well, at what point did you know you've you've got that correlating story of Barry's stepfather and his mom. When does that kind of jump in with the story as well? Like, where is that? Is that running concurrently as well? Or is or did you it was really supporting your and what I hear you saying is, I supported my brother, who was my dad's primary caregiver, and. By providing relief on the weekends. This is how me and my other sibling would do that, which I think is great, because that your role in that is very similar to how Emily and I try to support Jay as the primary. Because it's fine to have a primary, and it's okay if it's not you. But what can you do as a sibling, as a friend, as a family member, as another human being to support the primary I think that's so important. Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I will answer your question, but I wanted to add my younger siblings. I kind of coordinated them so there were times where my sister could get over to see my dad. She was only an hour and a half away so she could leave her kids with her husband or whatever, and spend some time. So we coordinated, and my brother in California would come out every couple months. So somehow we had it covered, even though my older brother still did the bulk of it. But what happened was, when my father finally did pass away, and then we were grieving him, we also felt some relief. This was not an easy thing to do, yeah, and it, you know, it's typical. Lots of people feel relief as well as sadness. You know, we're just humans. And then I was thinking, okay, we can focus on our kids. We're all good. Bucha, my parent, my parents are, you know, done. Six months later, we get a call from Barry's mom, and she says, Can you send me $30,000 holy cow, yeah, I want to hold I'm going to take a break. On. Can you send me $30,000 because that is a perfect moment. Hold on, take a break. We'll be right back. It's a new day for getting older, and a new day for getting help along the way with care. Scout say goodbye to aging care that makes older adults feel invisible and family caregivers feel alone. Say hello to a better path to finding, choosing and feeling confident about aging care, whether you're trying to understand what type of care and which supports may be right for your loved one, or you need to find quality care now, care scout can be your guide. Learn more at care scout.com care forward is a technology platform that connects volunteers with seniors, the disabled and those with chronic or complex health conditions, offering support, like transportation, home visits and more details online@careforward.io so we are back, and we're here with Julia Mayer and Natalie and I are so excited to be back. So your father has passed away. You and your siblings have been taking care of them for a year and a half, and you've had a six month reprieve from caregiving and something triggers, and Barry's mother calls and says, pick it up there. Julia, I need $30,000 Can you send me $30,000 Okay, that's not like a $20 bill, yeah? Like, just say 30 Yeah. What we knew, and I will backtrack a little bit on Yeah. Go ahead, about a year and a quarter earlier, we had been down there. They lived in Florida, lived in Florida, in this gorgeous gated community where the hedges are at right angles, and everyone drives a Mercedes, and they traveled the world. These are not people who sat at home and then her my mother in law's husband, Jean and Steve. Steve was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, and so we were visiting them, and I was taking a walk with Jean, and we were just chatting, and I said, Look, I know, I know Steve has Alzheimer's, and you know how that goes, it's going to get worse. We're here for you. You know, if you would move up near us, we would be happy to take care of you. You know, that's we want to Yeah. And she and in response, she said to me, I'd rather live in the gutter. Yeah, and here's the thing, Barry Jacobs, you can look up his episode, because Barry's episode, you're going to hear about a tenuous relationship with his mother and and I think this is, it is a very good example that it is sometimes not easy to care for someone you don't care for. And so there is care, and there are things that you have to put aside. And I don't, I don't want to speak for Barry, but I mean, I know that was a tenuous relationship, and I can only imagine, and he shares very openly about that. And so I would encourage you to also listen to that, because that's what we were saying. This is the He Said, She Said, because this is the other perspective, because he's saying Julia's praises in his in his podcast episode, because Julia, you just seemed like you filled you filled the space between to try to help soften the edges. It feels like and. I also want to say you also had children still. How old were the How old were your children at the time? They were teenagers? So my daughter applying to college. My son is three years younger, yeah. So jump to the six months after my father dies, my family's still grieving. You know, we're still grieving my mother too, because it had everything had happened so quickly, right? And we get this call asking for $30,000 and Barry says to me, I don't know what to do. And I said, Well, we could send them $30,000 or we could light it on fire, and it would have the same outcome. That's right. Oh, so he said, Mom, I can't do that. And she got very angry at him because, but what we what we discovered, starting with that phone call, was that they were bankrupt. Wow. So we had to intervene. Barry flew down to Florida and basically got the bankruptcy going. They lost their home. They had to give their car back. And with this kind of bankruptcy, I'm not an expert, but you can only take $10,000 worth of stuff. Wow, you took some furniture and her television and I raced around up here in Pennsylvania to find them an apartment to live in. And because her husband had Alzheimer's, I was worried about renting, you know, with Alzheimer's progressing, I was afraid they'd get kicked out of their apartment if he was yelling. So I bought a place in a beautiful building a mile from us that I live in a little tiny town, and this building is very popular. It has a beautiful lobby, it has a pool, it has meeting rooms, it has a van that takes people to doctor's appointments, into the supermarket. Oh, that's like a, it's a, almost sounds like a hybrid assisted living, but it's just a condo. It's just a really nice, high quality, wow. Of Louise Thompson, I would have her parents. That, like Louise Thompson in the UK, that is much higher than the gutter. So kudos, Joya fell out, or an added data, really nice. So moving on that is high. Wow, gutter. I want to know you to be my caregiver. I know. Okay, go. Keep going. So we moved them up. And, you know, it was an ordeal. It was not easy, yeah, and they very upset. They did not want to move. They wanted to keep living their life, but they ran out of money, and like I said, they had lived high on the hog, and they were paying the price, I guess. But yeah, so we moved them into this apartment. And Barry has three cousins, my mother in law's three nieces, who she, I think, preferred to her two sons, or at least the one son. Yeah, and so she was, she was telling them over the phone, within the first few days of living in the apartment that we had put her in a tenement. I'm not sure she knows what, what century she lives in right now because, like she's acting like she's one of, you know, one of the surfs, yeah? So, you know, it was, it is a nice apartment. Yeah, it's a nice apartment, and I tried to make it as nice as possible. So every step of the way she was very challenging. I would have them over to dinner, and I'd make this whole big meal. They had both lost weight in Florida, I think, because of their stress, yeah, all this food knowing I wanted to send some home with them. And they would sit down at the table with my kids too and Barry and say, we're not hungry. And so at first, I didn't know what to do. And then I had this idea that I would just make up plates like they were in a restaurant and put them in front of them. And when I put the plates down in front of them, they ate, huh? And and then I would pack up the food to have them take back to their apartment, and they would fight me on that we don't want the leftovers. We don't eat leftovers. We don't want that. And I would still, I would drive them back and put it in the refrigerator, and it also would get eaten. I was afraid she was going to say she delivered it like Uber and I was coming to get you, Julia, I was like, you have just overstepped. So Wow. So you are all, and I know this, you know you have this, this psychology background, but you're almost playing to whatever you have to do to help them, I want to know in all of this. So you are doing this, are you doing it to keep the peace? Like, is this helping Barry? Because I know that relationship is hard, and what, what is your purpose in doing this? What is your mindset and how is it impacting you? So multiple purpose. I definitely wanted to support Barry. I wanted to help him, and I knew that his relationship with both his mother and his stepfather was fraught, difficult, yeah, and it was less difficult for me, although my long history with my mother in law was I. That when Barry and I were first together, she wanted to get dirt from me about him, like she wanted me to complain about him to her, and I, I didn't have anything to complain about he is I really like Barry too, but she, I guess, felt like that's how we were going to bond, and because I wouldn't do it. We didn't bond, so we really didn't we hardly knew each other. We did not have a good relationship. That was close, but there was no hostility. Yeah, it was, yeah. I was her grandchildren's mom. There you go, yeah. So, so, how is this, from your perspective, impacting your relationship, your career? Because they live a mile away, you've got ungrateful party of one. Because really, I don't know that Steve is I think Steve is existing at this way. I mean, he's the one that is sick at the moment, and the sense of sick with Alzheimer's, and so you guys are trying to manage raise children, and how is it affecting you personally? So, oh, it definitely did. So I wanted to help Barry, but I also just have a very strong feeling of I like to help people. I do it for a living, and wanted to as difficult as my in laws were, I felt like it was the right thing to do, and I wanted to do the right thing. And I wanted to model for my kids, it is what you do with your family, even when they're rude to your face, you just do it. Yeah, and so. But it was really stressful, very stressful. And I think Barry said this in his podcast with you, we would talk to each other. You know, we would sort of meet each other down, like one of us would go over there to do something and come back and be like reaching, and the other one would listen and talk to talk them down. Or, you know, there were times where my mother in law, she has snuck all her jewelry up here. Yeah, of course, yeah, of course. She was busy selling it secretly and getting cash and then spending the cash on she had a shopping addiction, so she was busy spending her cash on all kinds of things she didn't need. Meanwhile, we had bought her an apartment. We had two kids that had to go to college soon, yeah. It was just very stressful, and we did not want her to waste her money, right? But she was busy taking herself out to lunch in our little town and getting to know everyone in the town, I think, bad mouthing Barry and I to everyone to the town. Yeah, yeah. So, so she one day. So we decided that we had this babysitter for our kids for years. We decided, wouldn't it be great if she could help out with Jean and Steve? And she did, and then, after we had to put Steve in a nursing home, she helped out with Jean, and they became best buds, and she became her accomplice, where they would rush to the jewelry store together to sell her jewelry. Oh, my God. Oh my gosh. I was thinking that was going to be, I was thinking it was going to be an advocate for now, giving you the damn totally sideways, totally went right on that one you were trying. That's just the moment where it's like, no good deed goes unpunished. And it really took me by surprise, because I would have these conversations with her, Oh, you know, we're trying to keep Jean from spending too much money, you know. How about you? Don't go out to lunch, you know, the two of you could have what's in the house and and she would not yet, she would Yes me, and then they would be out having lunch and spending money that you know, who was paying for this service. Just curious, asking, already know the answer. So, so what happened was the three nieces who heard about the tenement decided that they wanted to pay for a cleaning lady to come. And I thought, Well, why don't we merge these two things? We could have the babysitter get paid, yeah, and do the good, and also spend the time with Jean, and, you know, be her entertainment and take her around. And so they would send a check once a month to cover the cleaning lady expenses. And I was on gene bank account. Thank goodness I was I managed to do that. And so one day, I was looking at it, and the money went in, and then the money went out. And I said to Jean, when I saw her next. What happened to the check your niece is sent? It's gone. And she said there was a bank robbery. I said, you know, we live in a tiny town with one bank, and I would know, I think it was a bank. I like your just kind of like, that sounds like that sounds like my mom's done something bad, and she just kind of looks off and blames it on something. You're like, I think so. Sometimes my husband and I have the best conversations, like, you're just laying there in bed, like, right before you're getting ready to go to sleep, it's not something you and Barry are laughing about. Like, Hey, your mom told me the bank was robbed today. Okay, I'll. See in the morning, like, is that a bedtime conversation? Just curious. Well, at the time, I mean, it is. I look back and there's a lot of things to laugh. You just want to cuss or cry. Yeah, exactly. We got cuss cry, and then we get to the laughter point, yeah, yeah. That's, that's laughs, yeah? Mine that it happened. I think I was in stages one and two, yeah, and so I said to her, you really want me to believe that there was a bank that the bank was stolen? Are you lying to me, to my face? And she said, No, wow, there was somebody passing fake$10 bills. And, you know, lies, they wanted. Oh yeah, the biggest fish in the story, the biggest fish in the world. I'm telling you so. So what changes? Because you guys are doing this for a window of time. You said, you said this. Your caregiving kind of experience lasted over a nine year window, because it was a combination of supporting your dad and then Barry's parents. God bless you. I feel like, you know, it's almost like, what does that book there's like, nine years Yeah, I know she's st Julia, and this is why we loved you in the podcast. We were like, We love Julia, and we knew we wanted to hear your side. And so, so you're doing this. You and Barry are both working because I think this is the thing. Barry's also a clinical psychologist. He is both of these. These folks are successful individuals. They're out doing they're working at the same time, and there's bank robberies going on, and so go ahead question, but you and I want this is important at the time, because you guys are huge advocate, yes, for caregivers, the articles and the books and things like that, were you advocating at that time, or is this the push that pushed you into the word were you telling people at that time? Were you in that caregiving space? So Barry was more than me. He had written a book on caregiving, really because of his childhood situation, right? But as we were doing the caregiving, our kids, you know, ended up graduating, going to college, and then we had this opportunity to write a book on caregiving together. Barry's mother was still around, yeah? So we could use our current experiences like a little lived experience. I want to, we got to take a second break and out because I want to. I want to go in, because there's going to be a transition too. So let's take a break. We'll be right back. All right. Looking for care in all the wrong places. Try care scout. Our care finder helps you locate long term care providers in your area who are committed to quality, person centered care with care Scout, you can also order a personalized care plan created by a licensed nurse just for you. So say goodbye to a path of aging care that's nothing but confusing, and say hello to a more dignified journey, including providers who see you as you and a plan for quality care you can feel good about Learn more at care scout.com care forward is a technology platform that connects volunteers with seniors, the disabled and those with chronic or complex health conditions, offering support like transportation, home visits and more details online@careforward.io i All right, everybody. We are back here with Julia, and I just want to say, we I like the stages that you said, which is, there was cursing, crying and then laughter. So we've gotten into a little laughter. There was a moment there we were cursing and crying. This, the story is amazing. Yeah, we're in another stage now. So we're in another stage, so you're evolving, and you're getting in and Barry's Barry was the first lead into caregiving, and as far as, like, writing articles and things like that, and I'm sure that was probably therapeutic for him as well, and just trying to manage that relationship with his mom. So Steve passes, and now it's just Jean, right? God bless us. It's just Jean at the apartment. This is actually where all the financial stuff really starts happening, like to me about the money and and she starts to decline because she also has vascular dementia. Wow, yeah. So we have her in the apartment. We're we're starting. Thank goodness she had long term care insurance, really money. So we were able to get AIDS in, in addition to the babysitter, who continued to see her weekly, whatever, no boundaries, we had the AIDS coming in, and we were spending more and more time there, and we set up a system that really worked. Well, you know, we had a notebook, which I highly recommend to people, so that when the aides would be done with their shift, they could sort of write a paragraph about what went and the next. Aid could come in, or if one of us was coming in, we could see what was going on. Because Jean stopped being a very good reporter about what was happening. She would have a fall and not want to tell us, and I'd see her arm was all black and blue, and I'd say, what happened? Nothing, of course. No, yeah. Well, you know, was she? Was she combative? And I don't mean combative, like physically, but do you think really was she just, did she remain? Did there feel like there was an ounce of gratitude, or did everything feel like a fight for throughout this caregiving experience? Because I think this is so important, most people are like, Oh, well, you know, we had a hard time. But what would you assess that to be it was tough a lot of the time. She was combative. She lost a lot, and she had a hard life. Her her husband. Before Steve died of brain tumor, right? He was a single mom. She was rushing and she married, rushing around, managing everything. She married Steve. Steve had his issues, right? Probably had a drinking problem. He had PTSD from fighting in Korea, and he was a guy in a lot of depression. Yeah, and she baby did, I think she didn't get out of life what she really was hoping for when they were living in that community in Florida and traveling the world. I think she was living her dream. It's just not, not what it should have been, because she really didn't have the money to live that dream. Yeah, she did for a while, but then, you know, it felt like, I think, a major step down to move up near us, and she, she was unhappy, so a lot of the time she would push back, and especially with Barry, yeah. So one day, I was looking at her pill box just as an example, and I noticed that the pills were in all wrong. All the pink ones were in one box and the yellow ones were all in another box, and suddenly the pill box was set up by color, which was not how the pills should be taken. Yeah. And I said to her, this, this isn't, this is not how the pills should be. And and Barry said, we're going to take over your pill box. And she said, No, I can still do it. I, you know, don't take everything away from me like I'm a child, you know. And so I said to her, you know, it would really make me feel less worried. If you let me do it, if I could do it, would make me feel good, yeah. And because I said it like that, she was okay with it. So then we started managing her pill box, yeah. So there were things like that. She wasn't a monster, but she was a no. And I think that's the thing, is that when you have again, I go back to that. You were that bridge between her and Barry in that relationship. That was a relationship struggle from long time ago that was just, it was just, it was not what he probably it was not what he probably hoped for. It was probably not what she hoped for, but it was what she was able to give and, and, and sometimes we can't put our expectations on our expectations of what we want on other people. You just have to be like, well, this is the bar. And so it sounds like you were such a great person to come in and, and, God bless you. Have the patience of Job to really, and I think would you say that you know your background really helped you in navigating this process as a psychologist and working because, I mean, if I know in your bio, we didn't read, we didn't read all the things that you've dealt with, but I mean, you've worked with individuals who you know, individual marital therapy and working with people who have eating disorders and troubled marriages. I mean, this is a troubled marriage between Barry and his mother, if you really think about it, using that skill set to help you. Yes, and it was much easier for me to do that than Barry, because mother, not my mother, had a little more perspective and space. Yeah, I could, I could not take it all personally. Um, it didn't hurt me. If she was rude to me, I actually expected it, whereas he kept hoping they could improve their relationship. So it would hurt him when she would, yeah, you know, that's so interesting, the way you put it though, because I take any any type of conflict with our mom, any words I do take personally, and for you to be able to say as an outsider, although you are family, I was able to separate myself and not take it personally, and that really gave you a different view of the process. Did Did she ever move in with you guys, or did she always stay in her apartment? Where? How did that progress? She stayed in her apartment until we she really declined, and we moved her to a very nice nursing home, although, and then she was really pretty out of it. You know, we would her. And. Yeah and all, but yeah, we still had a lot of management to do, because she would fall out of bed, right? I like, you know, you're still a caregiver when your loved one is in a facility. Yes, preach, yes. We just talked about it in another episode. Our mom has been there now for a year, and we were like, not what we thought it was going to be. Did not realize, and it's just a shift. It's an evolution in care. And I think that's really important for people to think, because, just because somebody is in a skilled nursing facility or at a congregate setting where there's paid staff to do it differently, like 24/7 they all got shifts, and nursing doesn't mean it's smooth. Yeah, no. So things change. Doctors have to be called. Follow up has to happen. You have to find out. After she fell out of bed, did she have to get an x ray, or was she okay? You know, is he eating? Is she eating too much? She whatever? Yeah. So, you know, I think we're, I can't believe we're at our time of her sister, my favorite part because, but I think we've got this professional on here, and because she's got lived experience caring for someone. And I would say, I would imagine the different. There is significant difference caring for your dad versus caring for Jean. And you know, it sounded like your dad was, and I'm not talking about because He's your dad. I also I'm talking about more of like, these are two human beings. One is a bit more combative, and one sounds a touch more compliant or appreciative. And I think that's differing, that's differing experiences. And do you think that supporting your dad helped you to manage and support not only gene and Steve, but also support Barry through this? It may have Yeah. I mean, my my dad, it was a strange thing, but I spent more time with him than I had in years. I felt closer to him in those 15 months that he survived mom. So when he died, it was sad, but it was also he wanted to be with her. You know, yeah, they were so different with Jean, because she was more combative. I feel like, of course, we had our moments where we got along, where we could have a life, you know, I really tried, and I would highly recommend a sense of humor with caregiving, because it really helps, and it also gives you some perspective, you know, the bank robbery thing, it did make me upset when she told me to my face, yeah. And I did say, you know, I treat you with dignity and respect, and I feel like doing that with me, and it really hurts my feelings. And I, I did get pulled in, but generally speaking, I, I tried not to, and I and I tried to have a sense of humor as much as I could, even when she was struggling, because I also had a lot of compassion for him, for her, yeah, and maybe it was, like you said, related to the compassion I had for my dad, you know, losing his wife of 50 something years. Yeah, I had a lot of compassion for her, so it made it easier to tolerate her, her misery. Yeah, I think that's it. I think misery is a good way to say it when somebody is just miserable because they're not happy with the situation. It can make caregiving much more difficult. And I think that's, you know, there are times that our mom is absolutely, I swear to you, she's miserable. And so there is nothing positive that you can say, because she's just genuinely unhappy because she has no control of the Parkinson's well, and she doesn't. I think one of the big issues is she doesn't want to be cared for. No having to have a caregiver makes her angry that someone has to be that she's an independent cuss, yeah, and so I get it. I get it honest, Julia, I again, there's a reason I'm the fourth favorite, and so I'm just like her. I am literally just like my mom. I'm strong willed and opinionated, and I really believe in my own opinion, and so, and so does my mom, and so, needless to say, so I want to ask, let's, let's jump through a couple of questions, because, again, like I said, we've got this great professional here, and so I think, and I jotted down a couple of things here. You know, I want to talk about advice that you would give. What would what would be like? The top three things that you would tell caregivers to say, these are the things that I would advise you to do. And it doesn't have to be in a category. Top three things you're like, if you do anything, do these three things. Okay? Shorthand, because I could talk about each of them forever. Yeah, I know the first one is do your best to not take their suffering personally and absorb it yourself. It's their suffering. You see it, you honor it. But it doesn't mean even when it comes out at you, you don't have to take it in you. Can do that thing that therapists do, which is, it seems like you're really upset, you don't have to absorb it. Yeah. The second thing is, always remember to be empathic and compassionate even when you're really angry at them, even when they've disappointed you or frustrated you extensively. Remember that these are people who are suffering, and like you were describing with regard to your mom, so much loss, so much that they were proud of, that was part of the identity that they don't have anymore, and it hurts them, and yeah, one way that they acted out is with aggression, and you just try to respond with compassion. And the third and most important thing is, if you're a caregiver, get support. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. Talk to people to share with people who understand what you are dealing with. You know, one of my questions is always about preserving relationships. And it's not necessarily with the person you're caring for, because my relationships and it even is with Natalie and Emily, my husband, my kids, my step kids. How you got nine? You got nine years you're with Barry. You got your kids. Tell me about preserving your relationships. How do you do that? Husband and kids. Husband, kids, your you know your siblings. How are you preserving your your people? The key is communication. Always talk about it. Bring up the difficult things and just have the conversation. I had to confront my siblings on some things that were happening that weren't so good. And and I had to say to my younger brother, you need to call dad. You need to make some trips out, or you will regret it later, because he was sort of avoiding the situation. Yeah. And Barry's brother, same thing. He was avoiding the situation. And we really had to push him to get so, you know, there's just that kind of thing. Yeah, and I, how did you What were the little things? Because, what were the things that you did to preserve your family, bury the kids, because, again, they were so younger or in high school, and over these years and they went into college, how did you protect your family unit? Does that make sense? How did you know together, like, how keep your family so same thing, communication. So my kids would help out when they were home with my mother in law. My mother in law adores, adored my son. Yeah, they put red hair and and so he would go over there and sit with her, and he was very patient. And I felt like it was a good lesson for him. A lot of conversation, Barry and I, like I said, we would talk each other off the cliff, but we would also talk to each other and and focus in you know, when you're not doing the caregiving in those rare moments you want to be mindful of what else you're doing. Are you taking a walk and looking at nature? Are you getting a peaceful dinner? Were you whatever it is you want to be in the moment? I love that. You know. I know that you and Barry are getting ready to publish a book this coming July. I'm so excited because we've got a bunch of books behind us. They're all caregiving books, and we're JJ, and I have talked about doing a book club, and I feel like you and Barry are going to need to come back to book club when you do that, and so you've got the AARP, this is in conjunction with them, caregiver answer book, give me the spill and tell me what it is, because it's different. It's different. It's not just a book. It's not It's a magic. It's magical. It is all of the questions that we can remember that everyone's ever asked us about caregiving when we've in our in our client work with our neighbors and friends at a barbecue, walking down the street. Wait a minute, Julie, I have a question for you. Or even when we presented in the past on previous books, every question that people ask us, so that, if you're a new caregiver, you open this book and you flip to I need to understand the finances. I need to understand how to talk to a doctor. I need to know how to set my home up, because mom is moving in, and it's all there, all the questions, all the basic and somewhat advanced questions that caregivers have. We hope we covered as much as Mom's got. Let me ask you this. I'm going to interrupt you. Moo, is this a caregiver book for just aging, or is this a caregiver in general? So if I had a loved one that was chronic illness, complex illness, SMI, se, I say, SMI, Su, do I apologize, because that's my my lingo for health care, substance use disorder, serious mental illness and aging. Is this an intellectual. With disability, or people on the spectrum, individuals that have disabilities or different abilities. Is this a book that is? Is a good question for caregivers of all shapes and sizes. There are lots of questions for anyone who is a caregiver. There are chapters. There's a chapter on dealing with someone with dementia. There's a chapter on dealing with spousal caregiving. There are, you know, various things that might not apply if you have, let's say, an adult child Who but a lot of other parts of the book. Do the financial part, does the preparing your home? Yay, just the self care chapter certainly applies to every caregiver. So yeah, for the most part, it's for anyone well. And I think Jay, the reason I asked that question is because people think of AARP, and they think of senior and I want to make sure that people don't see this as this new resource and think, Oh, that's not really me. That's not my situation. Because I think there's a lot of golden nuggets that you're going to be able to take away well. And I just want to touch things. We got the preview of it and little computer. And I just want to say to go along with it. It really is. It's like the Bible, you know, you got that concordance. Like, if I'm going to murder mom today, oh, let's go and, you know, figure that out. Oh, if I need to make a meal, let's look at the bread and wine. There's my laughter for the day. Okay, I love that. Yeah, yeah. So I'm looking forward to it. I also want to make sure you guys have other stuff out there, a lot like we said, meditations for caregivers, love and meaning and the articles that you publish, I just cannot give you enough kudos if you if you're not part of it. Barry, some of the articles that both you guys do are just so helpful, and they're short. It's kind of like the answer book, you're a caregiver, you have minimal time. You just need a perk. These are the things that you guys do just that are just inspiring. Yep, I'm going to say thank you from from all the caregivers, because we read them, we share them on our social media. So you guys will have seen probably Barry is very publishes a ton of articles, and so we shamelessly share them, because the reality is, is there's lots of great resources out there, and you should read them all like, read like, find the resources that work for you, not you won't just find one thing from one person. Like, we love we we love that you listen to podcasts. But we also have lots of other folks that were like, Oh, listen to this person, or go to this website. This is awesome resource, because this is where we've learned. And I think that's so important, I'm going to finish us up with the very last and most important question, because Julia probably knows what the question is, because she's listened to Barry's podcast. But Julia, what is your favorite guilty pleasure? What is the thing that you love to do just for yourself? Hmm, wow, I love to read, so maybe walk and read and not have any limit on it, like, not just an hour, but whatever amount of time. Oh, do you hide and read like, do you take like, tea or coffee? I always want to ask that, do you have to get? Do you have a space? Spaces? Yes, you know my green tea actually? Yeah. I got, I get, I get prepared to read this comes in, yeah. JJ, does? She is? I have her red chair on loaner, by far, she's building her house, and I keep telling her that the Beagle and I have decided we're keeping it, and so she'll be ready to get somewhere else, but it is the most comfy chair, and I just love sitting in it. And my husband will come and visit me in my office, and he'll sit in it like that is the conference chair that we'd like when we have discussions. You know, I think it's so important when I always say, What's your favorite guilty pleasure? That is code. It's another way of saying, what is the thing that you do for yourself? It is self care. And I hate self care, because people it feels like overused, like collaboration is overused, and but this is truly about health and wellness, and that reading is pouring into yourself because it's stimulating and it brings you joy. And so for me, I always say your guilty pleasure is the thing that does bring you joy, and you should take some time for yourself. Joy. Guilty about it. No, that's that's what makes it such an ironic statement. So, Julia, thank you so much for being with us. You are so wonderful. We love you as much as we love Barry. So you are now officially a sister, yes. And because everybody has no free will. You're exactly right. So whether you want to be and actually, I'm gonna have Julia come take care of me, Jason, I like Julia. I'm gonna need I'm gonna need you to help finish me, because I feel like I might be a little helpful. You've been warned. Thank you so much for having me on. This has been a joy. Absolutely, guys, thanks so much for listening in and until the next time, we'll see you next time. Bye. Well, friends, that's a wrap on this week's confession. Thanks so much for listening in to the podcast, but before you go, please take a moment to leave us a review and tell your friends about the confession show. Don't forget visit our website to sign. Up for our newsletter, as well as connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Pinterest and Twitter. You'll also find the video recording of all of our episodes on the confessions website and our YouTube Channel. We'll see you next Tuesday when we come together to confess again. Till then, take care of you. Okay, let's talk disclaimers. We are not medical professionals and are not providing any medical advice. If you have medical questions, we recommend that you talk with a medical professional of your choice. As always, my sisters and I at confessions of our reluctant caregiver have taken care in selecting the speakers, but the opinions of our speakers are theirs alone. The views and opinions stated in this show are solely those of the contributors and not necessarily those of our distributors or hosting company. This podcast is copyrighted, and no part can be reproduced without the express written consent of the sisterhood of care, LLC, thank you for listening to The Confessions of a reluctant caregiver podcast. You.