Overcoming Adversity Together: A Navy Chaplain's Unwavering Support for His Wounded Warrior Wife

As a senior Navy Chaplain, Bob Evan's calling has always been to serve and care for others, whether it was his troops, fellow service members, or the wounded warriors he encountered. When his fiancée, Gretchen, was severely injured by a mortar round in Afghanistan, Bob's role shifted from chaplain to devoted caregiver.

Despite his extensive training and experience as a pastoral counselor, Bob candidly admits that he struggled at times to provide the proper support and care for Gretchen as she navigated life-changing injuries, including deafness. However, Bob's unwavering love and commitment to Gretchen never wavered. He made it clear that he would accompany her on this new journey, no matter the challenges. Bob's journey as a caregiver is one of resilience, compassion, and a deep understanding that true caregiving requires listening, learning, and loving the person you are caring for.

As Bob shares his insights and lessons learned, it's clear that his role as a caregiver has profoundly impacted his own spiritual and personal growth. He has become an advocate for greater support and resources for military caregivers, recognizing the vital importance of self-care and finding respite to be an effective, loving caregiver.

About Bob:

Bob Evans, a graduate of Bowdoin College (A.B. - 1976), Princeton Theological Seminary (M.Div. - 1979), Candler School of Theology (Th.M. - 1992), and the Naval War College (M.A. - 2003), served over 25 years in the United States Navy. He retired as a Captain in 2008 after entering the Navy by direct commission in December 1982.

During his tenure, he served as a Senior Leader for the U.S. Fleet Forces, U.S. Atlantic Fleet, Joint Forces Command, Combined Forces Command-Afghanistan, and Naval Forces Europe, Africa, and Southwest Asia. He received the Bronze Star for his service in Afghanistan.

Bob began his career with the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) in May 2011 as Chief of Chaplain Services at Aleda E. Lutz VA Medical Center in Saginaw, MI. He joined the Atlanta VA in January 2013 as Chief of Chaplain Services and later also served as Acting Assistant Director. In February 2014, he was appointed Assistant Director of the Atlanta VA Health Care System. He then served as Interim Associate Director/Chief Operating Officer of the Dorn VA Health Care System in Columbia, SC, for six months before being selected as Associate Director/Chief Operating Officer for the Western North Carolina VA Health Care System in Asheville, NC. He held this role from January 2017 until his retirement from Federal Service in December 2019.

Now retired, he is a devoted caregiver to his wife, who lost her hearing in combat, and a strong advocate for veterans, their families, and all who serve the common good. He actively listens to others, helps them discover their passions, and supports them in turning their dreams into purposeful lives.

Transcript

Natalie: 0:00

Hey guys, it's your favorite sisters here with the confessions of her electing caregiver podcast. On the show, you'll hear caregivers confessing the good, the bad and the completely unexpected. You're guaranteed to relate, be inspired, leave with helpful tips and resources and, of course, laugh. Today's episode is part of our special series, heroes caring for heroes. We're partnering with the Fisher House Foundation to highlight our brothers and sisters in care who are courageously sharing their caregiving journey for both seen and unseen scars of military life and war. Now let's jump right in to today's hero confession, Hey, Jay,

Unknown: 0:43

good morning. Good morning, good morning. Oh look Kristen, singing today.

JJ: 0:47

I know I have something to tell you. Tell me. So I picked up a new hobby over the weekend, really? Yeah, my husband bought me a bow, like a bow and arrow.

Natalie: 0:59

Is it a compound bow or a recurve bow. Oh my gosh,

JJ: 1:01

look at your knowledge. That's

Natalie: 1:03

right, I was married before.

JJ: 1:04

Yeah, let's just throw one thing in there, and then we're going to get busy. Okay, did you know that if your arm is too close to the that that string thing, you can harm yourself severely, so

Natalie: 1:14

you have a bruise, is what?

JJ: 1:15

I don't want to talk about it anymore. We're

Natalie: 1:17

going to move on. Oh, dear. Well, you know what? It's a good thing that we're not confessing about how we can't use equipment. Yes, so, but we are, we are here, and this is our special series, heroes caring for heroes. It's

JJ: 1:28

one of my favorite series all year long.

Natalie: 1:30

I don't like to play favorites, but it totally is, because we are highlighting our active duty military and veteran caregivers and because, and this, of course, is played in the month of November as part of veterans remembrance month. It's National caregiver month. But we just thought we're going to double down on it

JJ: 1:49

absolutely. And I recognize that absolutely, and we are really grateful. We have lots of great sponsors this year. We have CVS health, we have tena, which is the number one adult incontinence brand in the world. We have summit behavioral health. We have behavioral

Natalie: 2:03

health care health we do. I know it's okay. Ty, you're not a health care provider, but I get it. I

JJ: 2:07

got I dropped in word summary, Sound Health Care. We love you. So yes, and we have care forward, and then lots of other ones. Everybody's going to check out the website to see everybody that we're partnering with. But today we have

Natalie: 2:18

an amazing guest, man. We have Bob. We have Bob. IS. Bob is wonderful. Now here's the thing, Bob cares for Gretchen, his amazing wife, who is, like, totally, like, bad a like she is, she's a rock she's a rock star. But then Bob himself is equally a rock star. And so because Bob loves his wife, but Bob is also himself in the served in the military, right? And so let's talk a little bit. Let's introduce our folks to Bob, and then when we bring Bobby, absolutely

JJ: 2:53

so as you said, we are incredibly excited to have Robert Evans with us today. He goes by Bob, and Bob was a senior Navy Chaplain when his fiance, Gretchen was severely wounded in Afghanistan by an incoming mortar round. Despite life changing injuries, which we're going to share with you that Gretchen sustained. The two married shortly after her release from the hospital and rehabilitation. This is a love story as well. You guys know that do love? Love the story. I know. Bob says his role as caregiver has always been to ensure that Gretchen has the proper resources and support to find, activate and achieve her passion and purpose in life. I love that. But Bob has admitted he confesses that he has struggled, despite his training as a chaplain and pastoral counselor, to provide the right support and care at right times, at the right times. And that makes me feel good.

Natalie: 3:51

I know Bob. I mean, Bob is him being a pastor and a chaplain. I mean, if Bob's struggling, I mean, he's got the red line, and here's what he's got. He

JJ: 3:59

said the stress upon keeping it all together, because we know we can't do that, especially in the public ring, that is challenging. Welcome, Bob, because I think you are speaking all of our language. So thank you so much for being with us.

Unknown: 4:15

It's great to be with you.

Natalie: 4:17

Oh, well, we are. We always like to say we do this every time you know we want to start from the beginning so you were born. And then you can skip some parts, but tell us a little bit about your background, about where you grew up, your family, a little bit, and then how you you went into the military. Kind of walk us up until, uh, to that point, because caregiving always has that, that point where it starts. For some people, it's a slow burn and you know, it's coming on. But then for others, like myself, with my husband, it's a phone call when we get a diagnosis and so and it just changes your life. So let's start. Let's start from the beginning. Bob, I. Yeah.

Unknown: 5:01

Well, I was born and raised in West Patterson, now Woodland Park, New Jersey. I had parents who were both well educated and were successful in their particular areas of endeavor, home, home economics teacher for my mother and my father was an industrial engineer and VP of several corporations. So I had a I was a middle I was a blue, white collar kid, and had very simple life growing up. Every Sunday, we were at church. Every Saturday day I was in church choir practice, etcetera, for what as a little boy and as well as as an adult, music is the voice of God, as far as I'm concerned, and it has definitely influenced my life in a big way. I got in trouble in fifth grade because I was coming and singing to myself as I was taking a test.

JJ: 6:06

You are my husband. I was also in

Unknown: 6:07

third grade, was asked to sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic by my third grade teacher. My My first experience with a black mentor who really just changed my life and made me realize that education was fun, despite the fact that I have some sort of dyslexia, which has yet to be fully diagnosed, but made me a very slow reader. But she was very supportive. She was a caregiver to me, and modeled for me very early on how one nurtures the nature of an individual, as did my choir director, Mrs. Tune, oddly enough, oh, that's terribly convenient. And she said that it was fairly convenient, but she was always in tune with me and guided me in my vocal capabilities, and really gave me an opportunity to serve in that manner, to sing the Lord's song. Then went off to became a little bit more wild and challenging to my parents as I tried to individuate as a teenager. And then when I went off to college, having lived in a very sheltered and demanding, fastidious, overbearing environment where success was the requirement, I went to Bowdoin College, up in Brunswick Maine, one of the little ivies, and had a great experience there, but I was truly liberated, and I was rather a randy fellow during those times, and we still Chairman my fraternity. I love that, and and discovered a lot, and learned a lot, which then I went to I was a pre med student at the time and discovered that well, one summer, when I was volunteering at a church camp between truck driving and forklift operating for a company down in elizabeth new jersey, I woke up in This fourth grade cabin to a spell of ammonia, very, very rank, and someone had wetted their bed. And I said, at this was four in the morning, and I was taught an early morning in person at the time, and I woke up and I said, What am I doing here? God? And he responded and said, You're here to minister in the midst of my people, all my people. And I said again, what am I doing here? And again, he responded, same thing, you're here to minister in the midst of my people. And I asked again, sort of like this Samuel story in the Bible, and again, he responded, you're here to minister in the midst of my people. So I changed course and became a religion sociology, double major with a minor in history at Bowdoin College, and then went off to Princeton Theological Seminary, and graduated there, and then had a large church in Newtown Bucks County, Pennsylvania. And then got a sense that war was imminent. The sabers were rattling during the Reagan administration. So I went down to Philadelphia Naval Shipyard just to inquire what it would take to become a Navy chaplain. And I thought there were three major hurdles to get by. And I was fortunately able to get. By, but this was quite a surprise to my then wife. And how

Natalie: 10:05

old were you, Bob? I got to know this. 29 Wow. Okay, so you're 29 and you're thinking, I'm

JJ: 10:13

gonna join the military. I'm

Natalie: 10:14

gonna join the military decision. Bob, Okay, keep going. I'm totally intrigued. Well,

Unknown: 10:20

the reason why I wanted to serve was because I didn't want to minister in the midst of God's people, in the midst of war, and not know what the institution how the institution functioned, its infrastructure. It's, it's, rules, its requirements, it's, it's, it's general trends. So I went in and I became went to Chaplain school. I want to be a Navy chaplain. I want to sell the seven seas. I want to serve God's people proudly. That's what Chaplain school taught me. So I really enjoyed my experience there, and what I loved about it most was, you know, churches are, in some ways, the most segregated places every Sunday, and it's just Sunday, maybe a Thursday, maybe a Wednesday night supper or something like that for youth, but it's really a one day a week event for many people, and even then, It's as not as participatory as some would like, but in the military, as a military chaplain, you have to serve all people. You have to care for your own, but you also have to ensure that others get the care that they require. So early on, I became a caregiver in that sense of caring for the souls of and the sacred of each and every individual, whether I was in a ship or I was in a helicopter carrier, or I was in the USS Enterprise and aircraft carrier, or I was serving in a hospital, or I was serving the Marines, and in the midst Of all those conflicts and war time periods, as well as a very few times of peace. But it really is about nurturing the nature of each individual finding their specific gifts. And my philosophy has always been that we are as if gems and God's crown. Each one is of us as many faceted. Each one of us has a certain hue, and each of us have our flaws. But when the sun casts its rays upon that bright, sparkly, guess what? There's beauty, there's wonder, there's all there's there's a giftedness. And as a result, all those gems and God's crown make for a wonderful, wonderful glistening experience. And I'm not talking about sweat in the South. I'm talking about how the people of God, every person on the earth sparkles and shines and glows to the glory of the Creator. So that's my basic philosophy. And so when I went in to care for people, whether it be in the hospital or I went to visit my engineers down in the guts of the ship, in the bilge, um, I saw their wonder, I saw their beauty. I saw their capabilities, competencies, their capacity to be the best of all people. Well, it was in that sort of setting that I was called to be the command chaplain for the combined forces of Afghanistan, and I ran into this gnarly, tough, gritty Command Sergeant Major, Gretchen Doty at the time, and she, she was we met, and she told me to go find a bunk. And I was a captain in the Navy, Colonel or oh six equivalent, and one of the top three ranked chaplains in the US Navy, with great responsibility worldwide, responsibility. And so she just told me to go and find myself a place to land.

JJ: 14:28

How did that go? I'm just curious. Like, did you think this lady is? How does that work? I mean, did you like her at first? Or were you like, Okay, I'll just go find myself a bunk. Was there an attraction there, Bob? Or you're like, No, no, there

Unknown: 14:39

wasn't any. I think. I think, I don't know, I was a little, I was a little taken aback. It was oil and vinegar for a long time, until one day, as a matter of fact, I started running with her, because she was, she's, as you know, she's quite the adventurous, right? Well. Woman, and she was running miles inside this small compound, the command compound, yeah, and I started, joined her. And one day, the day I joined her, we started lap after lap after lap. And you know, I don't normally count laps, but she had expected me, like her, her entourage to be counting the laps. Thought, yeah, asked me, What lap were we on? I said, I don't know. And she gave me a buddy slap across my neck. Now, this is a Command Sergeant Major slapping in Oh, six. I was truly taken aback. I was aghast. I was a god. I just couldn't believe this had happened. I just couldn't and so I'm telling you, the relationship was oil and vinegar. But then she saw me one day caring for Marines who came back with their mates in plastic bags, having gone over not an IED, but land mines, they'd gotten off path, so these hardened Marines came in, and both Command Sergeant Major and I were summoned to the gate, and Navy chaplains function a little bit differently than other chaplains were quite independent, and we take the lead, and we are truly inclusive caregivers. And so we were, I was right there with the Marines. I listened to their story and saw their tears and felt their their their very souls that were so sick with grief. And in that moment, it was as if switch had turned and Gretchen saw that I was a compassionate, caring, effective, the caregiver to my military personnel, no matter what unit, what stripe, what nation, it didn't matter. I just loved on my people. She then started to come to church, to chapel and to Bible studies and others, followed this Pied Piper she pursued, who was basically quite the Spitfire. But when she which, what's that? I

JJ: 17:37

said, she pursued you, Bob, what was that? She pursued you. She chased her.

Natalie: 17:45

Oh, we're girls. We know Yes, and

Unknown: 17:48

we kept on and we kept on talking. And we were, we often ate together and we I was the preferred driver of troops, because, as I would, grew up in New Jersey, and I'm pretty offensive driver, very quick, very good reaction time, etc. I got a lot of tickets when I was a youth. I had high risk insurance. When I was first married, I was not a good situation, but I was a very good driver, yeah, and so the troops constantly asked for me to come out with them and and be on the road with them, because I gave them an extra gun. My religious programming specialist was also a gunslinger. And so instead of him driving or her driving, which is the was truly the rule. I sort of shifted colors and made sure that we had the best line of defense possible, both with me driving and with my RP as an extra gun if we were in a shootout. Wait,

Natalie: 18:59

let me. Let me. Let me take a break for just one second. Bob, we gotta take a break, and then we're gonna keep coming back. Hey, are

Unknown: 19:05

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Natalie: 19:40

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JJ: 20:17

Alright, we're back here with Bob, and we're getting into this is a good story, because he and Gretchen are oil and water, but there's some vinegar on. Oh, well, and vinegar, sorry, while vinegar. So okay, there's something going on. So you're telling us the story that you are the offensive driver. So let's go on. I'm ready.

Unknown: 20:35

So I was chosen by a lot of those guys, and one time, gret the Command Sergeant Major, came up to me and said, What are you doing on all these convoys? Said, number one, I'm with my troops. Number two, it's by request. Number three, be I'm a good driver, and so if you need a driver at any time, I'm available. And so I ended up becoming a driver every once in a while as well. So the relationship grew, but then I had to leave. I was at eight, eight months, and our tours were shorter as Navy versus army. Gretchen's tour was 24 months. Mine was a mere eight. So I left command, went back to Fleet Forces Command and joined forces command as the command chaplain for those worldwide responsibilities, and was actually carrying those on through my deputy even while I was in combined forces. So I had a lot of responsibility to go back to, but all of a sudden there was just this constant sense that this woman was very important to me. So I wrote her a letter asking about all the troops. And then at the end I said, could you ever be romantically inclined toward me? And she responded and said, well, and then I ended it with my normal blessings, chaps, of course. And as it played out, she responded and said, Do you remember where you've left me? And I said, I do. And she said, how do you propose to carry on this relationship, I said, through numbered letters, like we do in the Navy, because you never get the mail in sequence, emails when possible, on plain old, ordinary telephone service, and so occasionally We could talk on the phone, and the relationship developed. She came home on furlough, uh, actually sent by General eichenberry to get senior leaders on the Hill to bring more troops, because we just gone into the Iraq conflict as well, and so we were somewhat depleted. So she went forward to the hill and spoke to senior leaders and got those troops. But while she was home, I'd met her, and I was screened by her sisters, her sister and her sister's friends. I guess I was weighed, measured and not found wanting. And so having gotten through that screen and having been recently divorced, I asked for her hand, and she accepted.

Natalie: 23:37

I love that. I love that you're old school, Bob, I really love that do too. I'm gonna keep going okay,

JJ: 23:45

because I feel like we're probably near. That

Unknown: 23:47

was that was that. And she went back and immediately had one of her accidents and incidents, which she is prone to, because she always pushes things to the edge. And she was bitten by one of the bomb dogs, and her skin was pulled back on her hand, and she had to go through surgery there. But that wasn't the that was not anything great. I mean, she she had no problem, so that was right back in play the next day, yeah, but toward the end of her tour, and at four of her specific 82nd airborne crew, she was going around to the various Bobs forward operating bases, making sure that they had kept their head on the swivel and made sure that they were not losing their edge as they were approaching that 90 day window. Yeah, she saw many when she was doing her visits, and I was doing my rounds too, not with her, but separately, we were seeing these calendars that were going up, counting down the days. And as Gretchen often says, it was as if they could smell the apple high. Oh. And they were waiting to go home to mom, to their their wives, and to their moms and dads and their children and their loved ones and to their community. Because what do we fight for? We fight for our home address. It's not for oil, it's not for land. It's we fight for a home address. That's what every soldier, sailor, airman, Marine Coast Guardsman and space Guardian work for so she was out doing this at a fob up and up toward Pakistan, the northern border. And incoming rounds started flying as she was giving her talk to these young men and women, and as a result, she was getting all the people under the bunker a good leader, but she didn't get have enough time to get in herself. And so her PST, her personal support detachment, three men as a mortar, came in close in to Gretchen and them. The blast killed them and sent Gretchen flying, because Gretchen is on a good day, 100 pounds and five three and she was sent sideways by the blast into a concrete bunker, suffering TBI, all sorts of shaken up body and broken body parts, shrapnel from the homemade device, which had feces and razor blades and metal and so Gretchen had shrapnel through her whole body. And as the story then went, she was medevac to Bagram and then to long stool. And she woke up from that once on the plane and did a body check, and she saw she was all there because but she did realize she wasn't riding the way she normally does in the helicopter, with headphones on and chattering with the pilots and co pilot and the crew, their crew. So she went to law school, and she was put in a coma, and during that coma, she for about three to five days, and then comes a doctor with a dry erase board, and he writes on it, and he turns it, and he shows Gretchen that she's deaf. And Gretchen asked the question, Am I deaf for life, forever? And the doctor said, yes. So when that occurred, Gretchen did something wonderful during her recovery time and during her rehabilitation she said, Bob, I'm not the same person I was. You aren't responsible, and you don't need to marry me. Your vow doesn't hold at this point in time, I give you reprieve. And in response, I said, No, my darling, I'm in love you, and I want us to move forward on the journey together. I'll companion you in whatever way you need. And so shortly after she got through the her hospitalization and rehabilitation, and and her recognizing that she had no home, except for a storage unit outside of Fort Brad, where our car and a few items were and she tried to survive re entry into the into the world of civilians. Lee got buried, and that's where the journey really began in terms of caregiving. But I didn't recognize myself as a caregiver, until about three years ago, really as a caregiver, I thought I was just a good husband supporting my wife and a good man of God, companion my wife, my helpmate, the woman I loved to re entered her and make it in the real world, little did I know. Well, I she had a lot of accidents and incidents, especially during our first tour together, which was over Naples, Italy, where I was the command chaplain for Europe, Africa and Southwest Asia. And she had one accident where she took out the front gate of the Kristen Yano installation when she was bike riding with her pregnant friend, she was trying to get through the chicane of the barriers and took one of the barriers out, and took her hand out, and ended up they wanted to saw off her wedding ring. And she said, not only No, but hell no. And she said, Give me some morphine. And then the Navy Corpsman said, we don't give morphine. That's an army thing. So they gave her something else, but that, without any real medication, they pulled the ring off her distally broken finger. In other words, it wasn't broken here. It was broken down the center of the ring finger. She

JJ: 31:00

traveled with you. You You stayed in so I want to make sure I've got the timeline. You were still in the Navy and she came out, of course, after you all were married after her accident, but you all still travel together. Your service still continued? No,

Unknown: 31:15

my service continued for a few more years. Yeah, well, I was not close to troops anymore. I was in a very, very senior position. Yeah, not have a lot of interaction with troops, except for going around and and cheering them up and cheering them on and encouraging them, which is a great ministry as well. But yeah, I like to be in the midst of, as God called me to be in the midst of his people. Yeah, so I did not realize how challenged Gretchen was. She's a highly functioning person, even as a deaf person, and I just spoke to her, she had learned how to lip read and so she could manage very, well. She's a woman of, I think, genius IQ and great intelligence. So it was, it was didn't seem hard. It seemed like she was getting along just fine. But then she started, when we came back to the states and I took over a church out in Rapid City, South Dakota. She started running, and she started challenging herself greatly. And then when we were I left the church. I missed the cadre of people. I was working with my troops. I went back and became a chief chaplain in the VA. And then from Chief chaplain. I was in Saginaw, Michigan, and she was running fiercely there and competing fiercely there. And then we got to got a call to take over the chief Chaplain role in Atlanta, Georgia for the VA. And shortly after I got there, the director saw my leadership capability, and she chose me to become the Assistant Director in Charge of engineering and all sorts of things that are non Chaplin. But I had that capability, capacity and competency to do that job, so I did it. But while I was working 16 hour days, Gretchen was running running, and one day she actually ran along one of our major thoroughfares, Claremont Avenue, and she was pushed by a bicyclist who was coming up behind her, and she didn't hear him. She was thrown into the rubber way, and thank God it was in front of a Mercedes Benz with automatic breaking. And although she got road rash and she broke her collarbone, Gretchen was okay, but on that at that point in time, the doctor said because she just had to go down the hill to the ed in Atlanta, VA, and she was told by her doctor, you can't do the same things she's always done, and I had tried to modify some of the excess that Gretchen had done. She was running 12 to 13 miles a day. But as a husband, as a caregiver and as a a person who's a chaplain, you know, chaplains cannot even if you're a board certified chaplain and a certified pastoral counselor, that doesn't mean anything when you're the husband, that's exactly

Natalie: 34:40

right. And you know, I'll say this, Bob, I talked to Gretchen a good bit before we chatted, and excuse me, and she said that she's very strong willed and that she really doesn't she seems like she. Is very strong willed, very type A doesn't want to let this overcome her. And that, I would say that there were times that you were probably frustrated with her, I would assume, because of some of the choices that she would make, like, Hey, this is might not be a great idea Gretchen, and she may just choose to do it anyway. Is that? Is that right?

Unknown: 35:24

That's, that's actually the fact of the matter. When that doctor said that it was as if he was closing a door on her, something that I tried to do gently, but I couldn't make her change. I love the person she was and was becoming and so I did not want to tamp that down. I wanted to just try to find some moderation in behavior. But as she said, she is a very her call sign in the military was Spitfire. Yes, she was full of vim and vigor. Yes One Kennedy would say yes. She is a fastidious person. She is a driven person. She is a person who, when she heard no, she was looking for a yes and nos are not easily taken by Gretchen. Challenge of her position is not easily accepted by Gretchen. But this doctor said this and that made her seek out other answers, and the audiologist who was present at this in her repair mode situation at the Ed asked, Are there service dogs that are made for deaf people? And so Gretchen started searching, as she is want to do, and she found her answer at America's vet dogs, and America vet dogs said we will train dogs for veterans and first responders no matter what their condition. And so she sent off a name, name bell to America's vet dogs with fear and trepidation because she told them she had TBI, she had internal body parts that were still not in the best shape. She had shrapnel, she had TBI, she had PTSD and she was deaf. She sent off the email, and thankfully, when she in short order, received a message back. They said one word yes, but they didn't know how to train a deaf dog. All the trainers around the table had said, we have to say yes, but then they have to figure out how to fix the problem. And they succeeded at that. But it wasn't until after we received aura and then rusty as her second service dog, that I recognized that I was not just fairly responsible good husband, cook for all the meals and transporter of her to various events, and because she was directionally challenged, because of her TBI, one time, had a terrible time trying to back a car out of the garage. But these are all you know, funny stories now, but my reactions weren't always the best. Like you said, I got frustrated, and so not until I realized that I was a caregiver just three years ago, and then got some guidance from Elizabeth Dole Foundation and learned about caregiving, I realized that thankfully, I'd done some of the right things, but I also did many of the wrong things. I didn't give myself time off, I didn't give myself respite. I did talk to my clinical supervisor, a good friend of mine from seminary days, who I'd often ping to or talk to to to try to straighten out my perspective on what events were happening in Gretchen's life, but I was particularly concerned about Gretchen being somewhat suicidal, and that was why she was running so much. So thankfully, she got the dog, and the dog helped here or here, and also made her able to drive again, because dogs could alert her to emergency vehicles and their sounds and tap around the shoulder and and then look left to right, depending upon which side this ambulance or. Fire, Trotter, or whatever was coming. So she got some degree of independence back, and she continued to expand that

Natalie: 40:07

that's a good way to she continued to expand.

Unknown: 40:14

Yes, she expanded her domain, and she sought more help, and she went to no barriers, and ran into Eric weinmeier, the first person to climb Mount Everest solo blind person, and also the first blind person to ever traverse through the water the Colorado River, through the Grand Canyon. So Eric was another person who would not be defined by his his maladies, the things that define us are not limiters. So she ended up learning that she wasn't disabled, but she was a person of mixed ability. She's coined this phrase, and I think it's a great phrase, because while she lost her hearing, she gained the ability to speak or read lips and then return fire to those people who are talking to her. So she was able to speak very plainly and also to read people. But the challenge is, as we went through pandemic and other times, when people have masks, or they have beards, or they have a colloquial conversation, or they have a different tenor to their voice, or they're touched by some foreign language that flavors their English I have to translate for and it was through that experience in the pandemic, particularly, that I realized I was a caregiver. Yes, I provided her with meals, yes, I provided her with transportation. Yes, I provided her with various experiences in life, and I also got her connected to the best care team I knew. And those people are still are part of our rope team today, the people who we put in our quiver and hold tight, to hold fast, to for those times when we try to climb the mountain and make sure that we don't fall, we're tethered to them, or we go across a stream and we're tethered to them, and even though we might slip on a rock, we will not go all the way downstream, perhaps to our death, we will live. And I think that's the thing that I've learned as a caregiver, is that one needs to be compassionate. One must be follow the 3l which God gave me recently, that we must listen, first listen, then learn about the person, and then love on that part. I'd been doing it all my life, but that alliteration speaks to my heart, and it speaks to being a caregiver, that we really need to listen and pay attention closely to our the person we're companioning along the journey. We need to learn their specific needs, their specific wants, their specific and dreams, and help to make those possible in any way and by any means necessary, within the law, of course, and within the realm of safety. And then we need to love that person. We may not always like the response. We may not always like the way they they act. We may not like some of the things they're doing, but through it all, if we're brought to it, we'll be brought through it, and we need to intuit what that love is all about and how God intends for us to show that love to our companion committee. There are times when that is very, very hard to do. I get upset. I get angry. There's foment. Sometimes I just bite my lip because I have a very strong willed woman as my helpmate.

Natalie: 44:34

Let me take a break for just one second. Bob, we gotta take a break, and then we're gonna keep coming. Hey,

Unknown: 44:40

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Natalie: 45:15

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Unknown: 45:52

all right, we're back here with Bob.

Natalie: 45:54

You know Bob. I'll tell you one of the things Gretchen is exceptionally strong willed, and she is, and that is, I say that as a compliment, but it can for the person who lives with them, that can also be a challenge. It's the thing that endears us to them, and it's the thing that can drive us crazy. And so I am very strong willed, and so is my husband, and so we've been having a lot of conversations about choices that he's making that can that aggravate some of his injuries and so and the things that make me feel like I'm just talking to a wall, and I don't know if you've ever felt like I have these words that I say to Gretchen, and yet it seems like they're not getting into like she's not getting it, and it's not because she can't hear it's because she doesn't want to hear what I'm saying. And I don't know how I've talked about it with JJ, it's almost like when the person that you want to care for and you want to protect does not want to hear it, and it feels like they do the opposite. Did you ever experience that? And how do you manage through that, with your with yourself, and without just walking and saying, forget this. This is, this is more than I asked for and just walk away.

Unknown: 47:20

Well, I, as I said, I talked to my clinical supervisor. I practice mindfulness, I write sermons, I do devotions, I take retreats when I can, both separately and with brachion, several organizations beyond no barriers, higher ground is a great one for couples to experience the outdoors, whether it be skiing, mountain climbing or fly fishing or something like that. And higher ground is out of Idaho, but they are really skilled at bringing couples together and supporting caregivers and the like, through mindfulness training, through yoga, through sound wave training and the like. So those bits of exposure to new methods. I'm already a healing touch certified train personnel. So I do healing touch, which is like recce. And so alternative methods are very important there. There are times when I journal. I'm not. I don't always do it every day, but I do journal, and that helps me sort through my thoughts. It would be better if I practice it every day. I do believe. So I'd commend that to any caregiver out there. And another piece is finding respite care. Respite for caregivers is something that's available through the VA, but it's a very limited amount of time, right? Becky stack Stackhouse there in Roanoke is the director, and if anybody wants to talk to somebody who's really an expert in caring for veterans, Rebecca Stackhouse, the director and her team, are very adroit in doing the right thing for veterans at all times, but the VA is limited right now, with A huge problem of debt in and as a result, delivery of care and numbers of doctors to the patients is not as good as it possibly could be, but I think Congress is starting to rectify that, but I'd highly recommend also seeking the caregiver stipend from the VA another. Hard to get, but the Elizabeth Dole Foundation is trying to find other means. And as one of their fellows, with 15 million caregivers to veterans and military personnel, both of all ages were children, young adults, older adults, wives, husbands, parents. 15 million caregivers are out. There are people, you know, and so there's a real need for there to be put programs and support that's part of the infrastructure of our nation, even the infrastructure for long term care facilities. And I'm not just talking about rehabilitation care, I'm talking about the full graduated care. Absolutely is is underwhelming in terms of the numbers in each state, and there are some that are very good, and there are some that are very, very questionable in terms of the delivery of care. I think I really am an advocate for comprehensive, critical, timely, continuous, compassionate care for all. And so it hurts my heart that we're not taking this aspect of caregiving more more strongly.

JJ: 51:31

You Bob. What I heard you say, I think this may be something for all caregivers. Is that when you're struggling or when you you need information, what I love about you is that although your background is pastoral, that you have this Chaplain background, you are very open to going outside and seeking help. And I think that's something for everyone to realize, that going outside and seeking outside help is okay, and it's encouraged, and because you cannot do it alone. You know, it is you. You absolutely that is something that I've heard you say with many resources recommended, and I love that. Oh, 100%

Unknown: 52:09

Yeah. Well, it's, it's the essence of self care. Yeah, if we don't take care of ourselves, we cannot take care of our significant other or any other. I saw it with my mother when she was caring for my 95 year old grandfather. He was in home, and he was quite mobile, and he was deaf, but he was very, very functional, but he got under my mother's skin, and she did not deal with any of her feelings at all. And as a result, as we know in in all the world, either the pot is gonna bleak or the pot is gonna blow, and she blew and she yelled. And I thought that this verbal abuse was just uncalled for, but part of it was because she did not attend to herself. So I think that we can see the signs when we start to act passive aggressively and use innuendo, or we snipe or snip, or we yell and strain that there's a those are danger signs of the pot about ready to boil over, and we need to take care of ourselves and realize that we cannot do it alone, that we do need to be tethered to other people, other resources that can guide us through those Tough times. We have our mountains to climb, too, and that's something not to be dismissed. We have to attend to ourselves.

JJ: 54:09

You know, Nat, I know that we are over time, and Bob, I'm telling you that you I feel like I can say that Bob has taken me to church today because I love to listen to you like you're one of those pastors I could set out and just listen to, because the wisdom I've picked up today is, oh, it's immense. So I know we have to jump into sister questions. Let's jump in. We're gonna jump in really fast. I have an easy one. I think. Go ahead. It may be hard for both though. Bob, I love hymns and I have we will laugh and say that I pass out when I have to give blood, and the only way I can do it is sing. That's what they tell me to do, because it keeps you breathing. And I sing hymns. So my question is, what is your favorite hymn? Oh, that's a good one. What is your favorite? Open

Unknown: 54:51

my eyes that I may see glimpses of truth. Thou hast for me. Place it in my hand, the wonder. Beautiful key that shall unclasp and set me free silently. Now I wait for thee ready, my God, I will to see, open my eyes and open me, spirit divine. Now, our grandmother,

JJ: 55:23

she played the piano play church, and that's one of her songs.

Natalie: 55:26

I can go, I can hear her music. That's I can never hear that gift. Thank you, because I can tell you that I can hear, I could hear her play. Yeah, that where we our servant hearts come from church and from our family. So I will say that now people look at me tearing up. Tear it up. I'm like,

JJ: 55:45

Oh my gosh, I could hear my group, and I could hear playing the piano. Okay, so

Natalie: 55:49

I'm gonna, I'm gonna end us on something a little different. I always like to ask this question, Bob, and I ask, what is your favorite guilty pleasure? And the guilty pleasure is really, what is the one thing that you do for yourself, just for you, that you're like, This is all mine. I'm gonna do it that you enjoy.

JJ: 56:13

Oh, I don't. I don't.

Unknown: 56:16

I always have a song on my heart and in my mind, even meeting individuals a song will lead to mind. And so I regularly sing or belt it out. So keep that up. Going to Broadway a lot, so I sing a lot of show tonight. Oh, I

JJ: 56:36

love just keep it up, Bob, because it brought joy to my heart this morning. Oh, man, I'm

Natalie: 56:39

I feel fantastic. You're exactly what I needed this morning. Thank you so much, Bob. Thank you for blessing us and guys. Thanks so much for listening to our special series, heroes, caring for heroes. And we want to thank our sponsors. We

JJ: 56:53

do our sponsors series, of course, are CVS Health. We have 10 a brand. We have summit behavioral health care. We also have care forward, and we have just a number, of course, one, thank the Fisher House, exactly, the Fisher House. And then many, many other partners. Too many to list, actually, I

Natalie: 57:12

know. So make sure you go to the website, and you will see last year's as well Heroes series, and then you'll see all the series participants, but educational and our guests, like Bob and then, of course, the PBS series, Bob and Gretchen are going to be on our PBS special mid November, on your wherever you you watch or listen or stream PBS. Yeah, so it will be on there, Bob. I can't wait to meet you and Gretchen in like two weeks. You're recording this, and I'm like, Oh, me and Bob and Gretchen on the on the 21st and so it's going to be fantastic.

JJ: 57:52

Thank you, Bob.

Unknown: 57:54

Okay, Blessings to you all. And remember, it's not just a need to belong that we seek community, but it also helps us recognize what we long to be.

Natalie: 58:07

Thank you. Thank you, Bob, until we confess again, we'll see you next time. Bye, Well, friends, that's a wrap for today's educational episode. Thank you for listening to our special series, heroes, caring for heroes. And don't forget to visit our website to sign up for our monthly newsletter. Sign up for the free sisterhood advantage discount club, and, of course, connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Tiktok, Twitter and Pinterest. You'll also find the video recording of all our episodes on the confessions website and our YouTube Channel. We'll see you next time when we confess again. Till then, take care of you. Okay, let's talk disclaimers. We are not medical professionals and are not providing any medical advice. If you have medical questions, we recommend that you talk with a medical professional of your choice, as always, my sisters and I at confessions of our reluctant caregiver have taken care in selecting the speakers, but the opinions of our speakers are theirs alone. The views and opinions stated in this show are solely those of the contributors and not necessarily those of our distributors or hosting company. This podcast is copyrighted and no part can be reproduced without the express written consent of the sisterhood of care LLC. Thank you for listening to The Confessions of a reluctant caregiver podcast. You.